Pop-Culturalist.com

Writer-director Benjamin Wong and producer Elizabeth Ai are making waves on the festival circuit with their poignant and emotionally gripping feature, Ba.

In the film, Daniel Li (played by Lawrence Kao), a struggling father, faces a harrowing dilemma as he finds himself devoid of options, funds, and shelter. In a desperate attempt to secure his daughter Colette’s (portrayed by Kai Cech) future, Daniel unwittingly accepts a chilling role—becoming Death itself. As he undergoes a haunting physical transformation, he discovers that anything he touches will perish. Daniel navigates this cursed existence, concealing every inch of his skin and imposing strict boundaries to ensure Colette’s safety, all while striving to reverse his fate. However, when a Child Protection Services Officer takes an interest in Colette’s situation and uncovers the truth about Daniel, their world begins to unravel.

Pop Culturalist had the privilege of conversing with Benjamin and Elizabeth about Ba, delving into its exploration of darker themes and the human condition through horror, as well as the process of creating a passion project alongside friends.

PC: Ben, horror is experiencing such an exciting renaissance as another medium to tell cool and impactful stories, Ba included, and the genre has this really sneaky quality of bringing timely and relevant themes to the forefront in such a subtle way. As you began penning this script, how early on did you know you wanted to include all of those elements as well as the supernatural/fantasy elements, which I think was a brilliant creative decision, as opposed to doing a straightforward drama?
Ben: Thank you so much. It was never really a drama. From the beginning, it was this dark fantasy. I love genre. I’m a huge genre fan. If I take a step back, it’s always been a safe space to explore dark ideas, dark emotions, and whatnot. If you watch a straightforward drama, it’s not like they can’t explore those spaces as well, but for me, genre is where you can go really dark and dive into the depths of the human soul.

I was actually talking to Pam Grady, who’s a reporter for SF Chronicles, and she said, “Your film reminds me of the Brothers Grimm.” It took me a second to think about that because we all know of the Brothers Grimm today. They did Cinderella and all those modern fairy tales, and they’ve been Disneyfied and sanitized for children. But if you go back to the original story that they wrote, these were stories that were being told through spoken word and have survived centuries. Not only in Europe but throughout the whole world.

There’s this rich history of fairy tales. They were dark. They were ultra-violent. They would definitely be rated R or more these days. There’s cannibalism, murder, and all these dark themes. There’s something that really speaks to the human condition that we crave these stories that are really dark and to explore feelings, ideas, and spaces that we don’t experience in everyday life. Maybe we will, but it’s a way for us to almost practice these experiences, these dark spaces, and dark emotions. I was flattered that she made that comparison. It’s what we’re trying to do a little bit with this film and use that as a canvas to go dark and deep.

PC: Elizabeth, you shared this inspirational post on social media that as we get older in life, life catches up with us, and the idea of making a passion project feels like such an impossible dream. But the two of you really willed this project into existence. What was it about Ben’s script that hit home for you? How did that guide you both through the ups and downs of this production?
Elizabeth: It was Ben’s script that spoke to me. But even more so than that, it is knowing who Ben is as a person. We’ve been friends for the last fifteen years. I know his wife and his kids. When we first met each other, we were nerding out about films, being in a film fellowship together at Film Independent, and knowing him as a person and the stories that he’s always been interested in.

We’ve had so many conversations over the years about these interests. It’s what already intrigued me about Ben’s creativity and his imagination. There were always these stories about the human condition in these allegories. So you’re going to have to dig a little deeper.

You might be drawn in by the aesthetic of the world or the premise, but once you get deep into that story, you realize it’s a metaphor for so much more. In reading the script, it was deeply heartfelt, and at the same time, it felt very aligned in ways that I am still continuing to process as a mom myself.

When he first sent me the script, I was still a newish mom. I had a one-year-old. When I started to read it, I was really blown away by the emotional thread that ran through the entire script. It wasn’t just this supernatural thing, genre, or horror; it was this deeply, deeply personal story for Ben and one that I felt was universal to me as a mom.

He was like, “I’m struggling as a dad with these thoughts running through my brain.” He put it to paper. Then to read it as a parent, I was like, “Oh, damn.” The script moved me, but the next layer was we entered “the end of times” with the pandemic, which feels like a distant memory now. But at the time, it really helped the story take shape because a lot of these existential questions became magnified in that time when we started to go into production.

PC: Credit to your writing, Ben; I feel like this is a film that you can watch over and over again and learn new things. One of the beautiful things about independent filmmaking is that you’re able to take more risks. Somebody like Lawrence would have been historically overlooked for roles like this because he doesn’t have that experience as a father, but he brought so much strength, vulnerability, and this empathetic quality to Daniel. Ben, what made Lawrence stand out during that audition process? How were you able to share your own experiences as a father raising a child during the height of all these Asian hate crimes and instill that in him?
Ben: I remember during casting when we saw his tape, he just popped. I know he’s not a dad, but he had this vibe to him that felt like so many Cali dads. I just made that up. I don’t know if that’s a thing. But he felt like a Cali Asian dad. I know this guy. I have friends like this guy. He felt so authentic to so many friends that I have who are dads or not dads.

This story was actually largely inspired by something he did fifteen years ago. He was on a show called America’s Best Dance Crew. That for me, back in 2008, was a landmark show for me as an Asian American and to see these Asians on TV. It’s the show that had the Jabbawockeez and Lawrence’s dance crew. At that time, we were living in a wasteland of Asian representation. To see these Asians come on screen and kill it, be the best dancers, be sexy, and all these things was a huge moment for me.

Lawrence was on that show. I didn’t know it at the time during casting, but in the back of my mind, he actually inspired a lot of the story because I thought about his story and the story of a lot of artists in L.A. and in the creative field. You can be in the limelight for a moment, but what happens when that limelight goes away and you’re still trying to make money to pay the bills, especially if you have a daughter. I really felt like he was meant to play this role. He does a phenomenal job. We really put his character through the wringer in the film, as you can see. I was so grateful that we got to work with him. He always felt like he was the guy for this role.

PC: It feels like a very full-circle moment. Elizabeth, change, particularly in this industry, is something that doesn’t happen overnight. It’s storytellers and filmmakers like yourself and Ben, and projects like Ba that are pushing true inclusion and representation forward through the casting of this project and the people working behind the scenes. How do you hope this project continues to open doors for our community? What advice would you give aspiring filmmakers who feel like a career in this industry is out of reach?
Elizabeth: It still feels out of reach for me and Ben. We talk about it. We’re like, “What did we just do?” We spent years, Ben especially, he’s put everything into this. His family’s in this film. My family’s in this. My daughter’s in this film. We put so much into it.

In a lot of ways, it still feels out of reach. That’s the real talk. You’re like, “Who has these resources? Who has this time?” I did write a very personal social post because it’s true. It felt so out of reach until you’re like, “You know what? How am I going to be on my deathbed?” The morbid themes of the film come up and you’re like, I want to not have these regrets if this opportunity does arise. It’s a gift because it’s not often that somebody comes along and says, “Here’s this beautiful script and we’re going to be able to make this with our friends. There’s funding in place.”

It felt more dire than ever. We were in COVID. It’s like why not? I could die literally at any moment from somebody coughing in the wrong way. At the time, before we actually knew what it was or had vaccines, it was like I could die. If this is the way it’s going down, this is worth it to me right now. If this is how it ends, it’s not me just sitting in my house staring at four walls and wondering if this is how it ends in these four walls.

It depends on where each person is on their journey, but it is really hard. It is really out of reach for the vast majority of people. I don’t know if I have something super inspirational, but when it does come to that moment, I hope that door opens and somebody does receive the gift or the message that they get, and they’re like, “I’m ready to tell my story.” Whether it’s writing a social media post or doing your TikTok or making this film.

There are so many ways to tell stories now. I’m not sure if a movie is the way to tell it. It just happens to be the way Ben and I met and a lot of our friends that are telling stories are telling it in this medium. But in the last fifteen years that we’ve known each other, so many other avenues have opened up. So I’m excited to see the stories that come about.

PC: Ben, I imagine as the writer-director, you have such a strong sense of who these characters are, but when you cast your actors, you want them to bring their own interpretations. How did you create the space on set for the leads, Lawrence and Kai, to do that exploration and play?
Ben: Filmmaking is a team sport. It’s hugely collaborative. There’s a reason why we cast these amazing actors; it’s because there is something that they have that they’re able to bring to these roles. It’s not about me trying to cram anything down their throat. It’s really about giving them that space.

Every actor is different. Some actors want a lot. They want to talk about it, and I want to support them. I want to support each actor in what works best for them. That’ll range from having conversations to actually rehearsing and whatnot. It’s different with every actor. Again, I feel so lucky to work with the actors that we have, especially our leads, Kai and Lawrence, because I was blown away by their performance.

There were a lot of times where I almost had an out-of-body experience because when you’re directing, you’re seeing it from the camera and you’re concentrating so intently to give notes for the next time unless there are no notes. But there were times when I found myself having an out-of-body experience, and they were just carrying the story. I found myself swept up in their performance. In those fleeting moments, I was just watching the movie and it was beautiful. It’s hugely collaborative, and I feel very lucky with the cast that we have.

PC: What a poetic answer. Elizabeth, Ba is making its way around the festival circuit now. As you were saying, yes, it’s Asian-led, but it is a universal story about parenthood and sacrifice. What has it been like getting to share this project with a live audience and see their reactions? What does the future hold for this project?
Elizabeth: I don’t feel equipped to answer that question. It’s hugely gratifying. I’m going to pass the microphone back to Ben because this is a huge, huge labor of love of his.

Ben: I’m excited to find out. We had a great premiere at Cinequest. I’m eager to share it with more viewers. So hopefully that comes in the form of some distribution or whatnot. To answer your question, it was hugely gratifying. There’s this desire to share it with an even larger audience.

Elizabeth: This is such a huge privilege to be able to make it, but it feels like there are so many gatekeepers and things that we can’t control in our industry. So the best thing we can do is continue to share hope that we have opportunities to talk to you and have a platform, but it does feel like there are fewer ways to be a part of the film industry every day. You see these things pop up with mergers, acquisitions, players that go belly up, and you read about that every day, and you try to stay optimistic.

In terms of the reception with the few that have had a chance to see it, it’s gratifying. With what the future holds, we’re not sure. We hope that people receive it and embrace it, and the people that we made this movie for love it.

PC: I feel like this project is going to have a great festival circuit and there will be distribution. Above all, it’s a good quality film that people need to see. Ben, the cinematography and color grading are so immersive, and it really elevates your writing. How has your visual background aided you as you made your directorial debut?
Ben: I’ve always been a visual person, but I have to give credit to our team; Mingjue Hu, our cinematographer, and Robert Crosby, our colorist. They’re masters of their craft. I was just there to say yes/no. I give them so much credit in terms of creating that world and immersive palette.

Creatively, we talked about making things surreal. We’re riding this balance between realistic versus fantastical. There was always this desire to use colors, use light to push us more into the surreal world. They did an amazing job of that.

PC: It’s breathtaking to watch. I feel like this is such an exciting chapter in both of your careers and will open so many doors. Outside of this project, what’s next for each of you?
Elizabeth: Next, I’m making my directorial debut soon. I’ve been working on New Wave for a long time, and I’m really excited to share that with the world. It’s a very personal documentary. I told Ben this in private, but I didn’t know how important Ba would be to the foundation of the story that I wanted to tell. So there’s more in store.

These parenthood stories, these multigenerational stories are so significant right now. That’s what’s on the horizon. What does the future hold? I hope that we’re having bigger conversations about that intergenerational dialog. That’s what Ba achieves with the parent-child relationship, the father-daughter relationship. We don’t see those depictions of our people, and I want to see more of that. I won’t preach to the choir here, but we’re trying to move away from the stereotypes. A part of that is what we show in Ba that Asians suffer too from all kinds of afflictions. How do we overcome that? How do we leave the world a little better for the next generation? That’s what’s next for me. I want to keep pushing this narrative Ba but also in all the work that I do. That’s what I hope for.

Ben: I’ve been writing. I started to pick up the pen again. I honestly have too many ideas and not enough time. But it’s great to get back into writing. It feels really creative. Now having gone through this first feature, I have so much more insight into what works, what doesn’t, and how to best tell a story. It’s exciting to jump back in.

Make sure to follow Benjamin (Instagram), Elizabeth (Instagram), and the film (Instagram) for the latest updates on Ba. Check out the official trailer below: